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Subject review (reverse sequence)

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Posted by Dralnu   USA  (277 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Mon 15 Dec 2008 10:24 PM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
@David

I know. I never understood (in Smaug) having both send_to_char() and act(), since the two did the same thing, nor the short-sighted magic system that they implemented (bool resistence checks vs. %-based)

Thats another reason I'm going to just work with my own. Like Whitheknight said, at least then there is no one to blame for problems other than myself.
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Posted by Nick Cash   USA  (626 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Mon 15 Dec 2008 06:08 PM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
@David: Heh, that's for sure. Design flaws are the biggest reason I dumped those code bases in favor of my own. That way, if I hit a design flaw, I can't blame anyone but me ;)

It is an interesting challenging designing every part yourself. With so many ways to accomplish so many tasks it becomes very interesting to see which solution wins out and how it is picked from the others.
~Nick Cash
http://www.nick-cash.com
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Posted by YmerejO42   USA  (25 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Mon 15 Dec 2008 02:52 PM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
I have a correction to my earlier statement, turns out that NakedMUD is still alive and well. The homepage is

http://homepages.uc.edu/~hollisgf/nakedmud.html

It's basically the same idea as Ron Penton used, but this one is taken farther. I haven't tried it (yet, downloading it now), but it is supposed to be fairly easy to use as a base to apply any rules or anything you want.

~Jeremy
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Posted by David Haley   USA  (3,881 posts)  [Biography] bio   Moderator
Date Mon 15 Dec 2008 02:46 PM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
One thing to keep in mind is that the Merc/Diku/SMAUG code bases are not always, ah, perfectly coded. It's good to poke around and see how things are done, but the architectural decisions in these code bases should not be taken as gospel.
David Haley aka Ksilyan
Head Programmer,
Legends of the Darkstone

http://david.the-haleys.org
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Posted by Dralnu   USA  (277 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Mon 15 Dec 2008 12:16 PM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
Thats part of it, I'm learning as I go here.

I think that I am going to try starting with Socket none the less, however. I have the merc src to look over if I become too lost, and to play with if I want to, but I think I may like working with Socket a little better after thinking about it.

I've been working on trying to polish the basic design some, though, and so far the notes at over 170 lines (many of which wrap 2-3 lines, but I never put a linebreak anywhere in them just to keep an idea on one line), and I am STILL going on it.

The books, however, will have to wait. I'm short on cash, so I can't afford them at the moment, but I may look to see if they are in the library.
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Posted by Nick Cash   USA  (626 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Mon 15 Dec 2008 08:11 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]

Amended on Mon 15 Dec 2008 08:14 AM (UTC) by Nick Cash

Message
Penton's book is a good read the and code was very interesting, though I have never used it myself.

In relation to the other thread, I might note that Richard Bartle's book Designing Virtual Worlds has been an absolutely vital read. In fact, I would say it has given me a greater understanding of all game creation in general, not just virtual worlds. If you plan on really hacking together a code base I would make sure to read each and every part of the book (I've read the part on virtual economies a hundred times, but I'm also an Econ/CS double major). It is unlike Penton's book in that it is completely theory based and often analyzes the trade offs between two ideas that solve the same problem (for example, perm death v. infinite respawn).

Of course the design is completely up to you, but it is nice to look at the abstract in one book (Bartle) and see it applied in another (Penton). There are many free code bases to dissect and analyze if you are curious about various implementations of things.

To be honest, I think you'll make a better game if you start with something like SocketMUD, especially if you are the only programmer. You'll produce better code if you know how each piece of code interacts with each other instead of trying to identify why or how some existing feature is used and if it is safe to modify in some way. SocketMUD takes out the initial complexity of sockets and gives you an easy way to start creating content. The code is much easier to handle when you know exactly how characters and objects interact with rooms or some other means of movement, how combat logic is computed and damage is handled, etc.

Of course, that is assuming you know a lot about programming and virtual world game creation. If you know fairly little then I would take an existing code base and fiddle with it, just as you were mentioning above.

My two cents anyway.
~Nick Cash
http://www.nick-cash.com
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,800 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Sun 14 Dec 2008 07:29 PM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
Quote:

I actually own that book, I love the concept behind it, but I was never able to get the code to compile, even using everything exactly as he recommended it.


I got it to compile, but it wouldn't run unless I made some subtle change (something to do with the way it counted outstanding socket IO). Otherwise it sat there not accepting new connections.

The problem probably is, it may still be too simple for what you want, and may also be too complex. :) For example, he has two MUDs, "tiny" and "larger", the tiny one is pretty simple, the larger one uses Python, which you may or may not want to use.

However to do the book credit, it does go into a lot of detail about things, and if nothing else, helps clarify your ideas.
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Dralnu   USA  (277 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Sun 14 Dec 2008 07:14 PM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
@Whiteknight:

I was going to use something like SocketMUD later on when I was going to actually start working on the real thing. I may start with thats instead of doubling my effort though.

@Nick:

Useful thread. I'll look a little deeper into it, but I can see I missed a few things already.
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,800 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Sun 14 Dec 2008 05:47 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
I seriously suggest you also read this thread:

http://www.gammon.com.au/forum/?id=5959
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Nick Cash   USA  (626 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Sun 14 Dec 2008 12:27 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]

Amended on Sun 14 Dec 2008 12:28 AM (UTC) by Nick Cash

Message
It may not come with the basics of combat and movement, but you should consider SocketMUD. It is set up well and pretty nice to work with. Adding commands is simple and I was able to make some pretty rapid progress with it before I switched to C++.
~Nick Cash
http://www.nick-cash.com
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Posted by Dralnu   USA  (277 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Sat 13 Dec 2008 11:12 PM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
Yeah, 1.3M of src is a bit much for what I am looking for.

That book does look interesting, though. I may look into that later on (probably after the holidays).
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Posted by YmerejO42   USA  (25 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Sat 13 Dec 2008 09:34 PM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
I actually own that book, I love the concept behind it, but I was never able to get the code to compile, even using everything exactly as he recommended it. For a while there was a project called NakedMUD that was the same idea, but it seems to have died from the looks of the Yahoo! Group.
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,800 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Sat 13 Dec 2008 07:28 PM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
I think DoT is C++, but the bigger issue from the point of view of the original poster is, that DoT is, if anything, much larger than Smaug - as it is basically Smaug with a lot of extra stuff added.

I'm not sure that there is a simple, clean, codebase around that works reliably, but isn't overly bloated.

However this might help: There is a book by Ron Penton "MUD Game Programming" which teaches the basics of writing a code base, and has a fairly simple example one attached to the book (on CDROM). It is discussed here:

http://www.gammon.com.au/forum/bbshowpost.php?id=4854

- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Zeno   USA  (2,868 posts)  [Biography] bio   Moderator
Date Sat 13 Dec 2008 06:09 PM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
DoT is C++ and not C, right?
Zeno McDohl,
Owner of Bleached InuYasha Galaxy
http://www.biyg.org
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Posted by YmerejO42   USA  (25 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Sat 13 Dec 2008 03:14 PM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
Not sure if this is what you're looking for or not, but you could try the Dawn of Time MUD sourcecode. It's located at:

http://www.dawnoftime.org/code.html

He hasn't updated in quite a while, but that could be for any number of reasons. Good luck!

~Jeremy
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