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Subject review (reverse sequence)

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Posted by Twisol   USA  (2,229 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Fri 01 Oct 2010 06:34 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
We've talked briefly, but semi-speculating. He told me that the conflicts can be resolved, which makes sense (of course). The problem is that he had to re-fix the same conflicts after he pulled in the next set of changes from you. This would happen if you touched the same conflicting code again, but I don't see anything particularly odd in his network graph. I think it might have been around the time when you pulled in Worstje's theming changes, then reverted the majority of them, but I can't really say for sure.
'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,772 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Fri 01 Oct 2010 05:57 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
Have you tried to resolve the merge problems that Worstje is having or not? Or are you just speculating it can't be done?
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Twisol   USA  (2,229 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Fri 01 Oct 2010 03:26 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
I know. But if there are conflicts, Git must be unable to merge the changes without breaking something. It's not a matter of figuring out how to make Git do something, it's a matter of Git telling us it can't do something automatically. :|
'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,772 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Fri 01 Oct 2010 03:24 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
You made major changes and re-arranged stuff. He just wants to add a few lines of code.
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Twisol   USA  (2,229 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Fri 01 Oct 2010 02:02 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]

Amended on Fri 01 Oct 2010 02:04 AM (UTC) by Twisol

Message
Nick Gammon said:
Twisol - how about helping Worste to do his merge?

If there are conflicts, there are conflicts. There's not much I can do about that. This is the reason I abandoned my 'old' branch.
'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,772 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Fri 01 Oct 2010 01:58 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
Twisol said:

If there's any specific issue you have with Git, I'm more than happy to (try to) help... :)


Worstje said:

The last few times I attempted to merge my theming changes with your master I kept getting merge conflicts for every single time I tried to 'sync' up with your branch.


Twisol - how about helping Worste to do his merge?
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Worstje   Netherlands  (867 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Fri 01 Oct 2010 01:56 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
Nick Gammon said:

So without wanting to sound too snaky, you ask why I don't just do things the "Git way" but admit that you yourself have problems doing just that.

So please bear with me when I seem to cut and paste for no apparent reason, rather than just re-applying your commits.


Exactly, I have problems. I am human, and fully blame myself for being imperfect. Now, let's offset things a little...

I downloaded git for the first time on September 15, which is also the day I got my first taste of it. That's basically a good two weeks, three if you want to round upwards. During that time, I made my first steps into the MUSHclient source, wrote my first patches and did the research and debugging I needed to get done.

Git was written for busy busy projects with tons of merges, reverses, branching and so forth - the Linux kernel being the need of its creation. Thus, I assume git has good merging facilities, together with everything else one might expect, and so far it has not let me down. My own knowledge has been my limiting factor thus far, and I will work on improving that as I get more experience with the tool.

Do I expect you to be a git wizard? No. But as a project 'leader', do I expect you to go out of your way to do things manually that it can do for you with a bit of research, skipping the many errorprone actions that might result? I have only argued for the removal of human error, and the constant PMs/posts/notifications to you that you might have done something wrong. I know I'd hate it if people pointed out my mistakes every commit or two, so instead I try to offer a way in which you spend less time correcting, and as a result, spend less time getting annoyed with me as being the dude that always points out your mistakes.

Now, at this time my ability to merge this stuff from your branch with my theming each time manually causes me to have to re-merge on every subsequent pull. Yeah, I am horrible for not having figured all the details out yet, but it isn't as if there isn't a better alternative: leaving the code in as it was since it is not going to break anything, and to boot, anyone else who wants to build with a modern environment can have the added functionality.

And everything Twisol says is what I also feel - he just writes a bit more concise and less defensively than I do. :)
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Posted by Twisol   USA  (2,229 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Fri 01 Oct 2010 01:28 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]

Amended on Fri 01 Oct 2010 01:30 AM (UTC) by Twisol

Message
Not to imply anything, but there are tons of open-source projects that don't seem to have that problem. And not to put words in his mouth, but I think the problem is dealing with the conflicts, not forcing Git to do what you want.

If there's any specific issue you have with Git, I'm more than happy to (try to) help... :)

[EDIT]: As for corrupting your copy... I mentioned in my original t_regexp pull request that you can just create a new git branch and pull the changes into it, to give them a test drive separately from your master branch.
'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,772 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Fri 01 Oct 2010 01:11 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
All I am saying is that I can't always get Git to work in the way I expect - same as him.

So rather than doing nothing, or spending hours working out why, and possibly corrupting my copy, I look at the changes and see a handful of lines that need to be copied and pasted, and do that.
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Twisol   USA  (2,229 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Fri 01 Oct 2010 01:08 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
I see no inconsistency with Worstje's remarks. He's arguing against dividing changes. You tend re-implement changes instead of consolidating them, and Worstje is saying he'd prefer to consolidate his theming changes in the official repository. When it's not consolidated, and the split-off features have to be merged with every future change, it creates a lot of managerial overhead. But if everyone's on the same page, there's just the one-time cost of consolidating the changes.
'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,772 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Fri 01 Oct 2010 01:02 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
You asked me on GitHub:

Worstje said:

Is there a reason you insist on reimplementing / seperating fixes rather than merging them with the full support of the git toolkit?


And in response to my recent suggestion:

Nick Gammon said:

Just merge your theming changes in with my latest source - which I always release.


You reply:

Worstje said:

The last few times I attempted to merge my theming changes with your master I kept getting merge conflicts for every single time I tried to 'sync' up with your branch.


So without wanting to sound too snaky, you ask why I don't just do things the "Git way" but admit that you yourself have problems doing just that.

So please bear with me when I seem to cut and paste for no apparent reason, rather than just re-applying your commits.
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Worstje   Netherlands  (867 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Thu 30 Sep 2010 11:30 PM (UTC)  [ quote  ]

Amended on Thu 30 Sep 2010 11:34 PM (UTC) by Worstje

Message
None of the changes to the code that I made will break your build as long as there is no .manifest in your directory that specifies the usage of the common controls v6.

The THEME_GLUE fixes a graphical glitch that is visible only for themed users, and that will have zero effect on users that are not seeing a themed environment in the first place. The uxtheme.dll dependancy is (as the code explains) a fully dynamic one, meaning it fails completely silently if not available, and the nature of the uxtheme.dll is to provide visual gimmicks when appropriate. If the environment is not right (user doesn't have it enabled, common controls not loaded, etc) they resolve to NOOPs. (And if you wish / don't trust that, you could even wrap the themeglue.h file into a conditional for excluding your version, although I see no reason for that.)

I agree I would not need your VC6++ bugfixes reverted. Sorry for the unclarity on that subject (although I believe they do no harm when common controls aren't loaded).

So the only thing that I would like to see reverted are the themeglue changes as well as the #pragma's involving the linker. (When I originally saw your commit, I admit I didn't dive too deeply into it - I thought you had reverted all my theme-related commits like the tipdlg, world prefs and global prefs.)

Quote:
Let me put it another way - what is to stop you just grabbing the source and whipping out a custom build? Just merge your theming changes in with my latest source - which I always release.


The last few times I attempted to merge my theming changes with your master I kept getting merge conflicts for every single time I tried to 'sync' up with your branch. I probably did something wrong to make the auto-merging fail on the same files every time I merged after you brought out commits. In the end, it just seems easier and more sensible to keep the changes in the primary MUSHclient repository since they aren't affecting your build anyway if you keep the manifest excluded from the installation. And if you were to put the manifest for versions that pre-date any of my theming-related commits, you'd have the bugs with CEditview as well.
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,772 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Thu 30 Sep 2010 11:06 PM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
Worstje said:

Regarding the way you reverted things...

You are aware the _only_ thing you had to do to get MUSHclient to revert to its 'classic' look was remove the .manifest? The manifest is what causes the v6 controls to be loaded. No manifest, no v6, no unicode, no problem.


And replying to your comments here:

http://github.com/nickgammon/mushclient/commit/7b82bc9a

If I understand correctly, you don't need it all reverted. The only thing that went wrong (the edit control) was for me, not you, right? So the changes to the way the edit control was loaded doesn't need to be done?

So can you be more explicit about what changes you really need? You kept saying it was my version of MFC that is broken.

If I revert the changes I am not sure whether that will then break the behaviour for other people.

Let me put it another way - what is to stop you just grabbing the source and whipping out a custom build? Just merge your theming changes in with my latest source - which I always release.
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,772 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Thu 30 Sep 2010 05:28 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]

Amended on Thu 30 Sep 2010 05:30 AM (UTC) by Nick Gammon

Message
Twisol said:

MFC != STL.


Correct. As I see it MFC provides a number of features to developers:


  • Helper routines (eg. lists, string classes). These could be readily converted to STL because that provides similar things.

  • Helpful GUI management of dialogs. This was very helpful when I didn't know that much about instantiating dialogs, and exchanging data to/from the C++ structures into the dialog box, and back again.

    There is low-level stuff like checking numeric fields are numbers, etc.

  • Management of Windows structures and messages (for example, making frame windows, child windows, splitter windows).

  • Encapsulation of stuff like device contexts, effectively hiding some of the low-level housekeeping from you.

  • Management of things like menus, dimming menu items that are not in context right now and so on.

  • A nice GUI interface (probably much nicer than the one I have) which simplifies a lot of the coding effort.



STL doesn't address any but the first, because it isn't a Windows-based (or indeed a GUI-based) thing.

So as Twisol said, you would probably need to move to wxWindows (or just do it all "by hand").

That would be such a huge change you may as well just start again. And when you started again you would seriously consider making it a Unicode app (thus eliminating these problems with text views), seriously revisit the scripting (like Twisol wanted to do), rework the GUI interface, and redesign a whole heap of stuff with the benefit of hindsight.
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Twisol   USA  (2,229 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Thu 30 Sep 2010 05:03 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]

Amended on Thu 30 Sep 2010 05:05 AM (UTC) by Twisol

Message
WillFa said:
So, ummm... Isn't this the big argument for ditching MFC for STL and getting away from VS all together?

MFC != STL. We'd have to move to a totally new GUI framework, such as wxWidgets. Nick's said several times that it would probably be better just to start from scratch, and I agree.

WillFa said:
My buddy asked me if I understood the difference between ignorance and apathy. I replied "I don't know and I don't care."

*high five*
'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol
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