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Message:	[quote=Plamzi] Maybe no-one's watching this thread anymore, but I'd like to say that the design obstacles to mobile MUD clients are surmountable and have been overcome already. I believe both Blowtorch for Android and MUDMaster for iPhone make normal mudding possible. Those of you who believe otherwise, should try them and stick with them for at least a day or so. Also, there has been a full MUD GUI in the iPhone App Store since Sept. 2009 and hundreds of people have played it normally ever since. I really don't see a reason why MUSHClient can't make another strong entry in the GUI app department, although it would have to pick and choose carefully what GUI elements to support. Full disclosure: I'm the dev of MUDMaster and Bedlam for iPhone. [/quote] Message to be posted (in English, please).
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Posted by

Plamzi (4 posts)

Date

Sun 10 Apr 2011 04:10 PM (UTC) [ quote ]

Message

Nick Gammon said:

Plamzi said:

* To quit an app fully under iOS4+, you have to 2tap Home button while at main menu, press and hold the app icon in task manager, and hit the delete icon that shows up.

I didn't know that. I bet a lot of other people don't either. Well all the more reason to have a little icon (maybe an X in the corner) that takes you back to the game's menu so you can connect to another MUD.

Yeah, that's a good idea. The reason I haven't done so already is that I want the user to be able to hide the UI fully. That's a fundamental feature of the app as far as I'm concerned. If I can only figure out a way to show that X contextually, only when the user might need it, that would be ideal. But having something always taking up space on the screen is a big sacrifice for me, so I'm holding off.

Compare the MUDMaster UI to the one of MobileMUD and the TMC game client - it's a very different approach to the challenge of a small screen size. I realize it means people have to read the help file to get to learn about all the hidden functionality and that few people read help files, but I built the client that I would want to use, and I think anyone who does read the help file (http://www.eyecandid.com/mudmaster/help.html) ends up quite satisfied.

I have some comments regarding mobile GUI's but I'll have to share them another time.

Posted by

Nick Gammon Australia (18,770 posts)

bio Forum Administrator

Date

Sun 10 Apr 2011 12:29 PM (UTC) [ quote ]

Message

Plamzi said:

* To quit an app fully under iOS4+, you have to 2tap Home button while at main menu, press and hold the app icon in task manager, and hit the delete icon that shows up.

I didn't know that. I bet a lot of other people don't either. Well all the more reason to have a little icon (maybe an X in the corner) that takes you back to the game's menu so you can connect to another MUD.

- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com

Posted by

Nick Gammon Australia (18,770 posts)

bio Forum Administrator

Date

Sun 10 Apr 2011 12:27 PM (UTC) [ quote ]

Message

Plamzi said:

* The default font was chosen because it fits a lot more text per line. It's easy enough to change to a mono-space font but the only such font available OOB is Courier ...

Yes I see what you mean, and that is probably one of the problems for MUD games on iPhones in general. You have chosen a compromise that does indeed show quite a bit, particularly of things like room descriptions. No offence, I think it is a limitation of the platform itself. Probably not as bad on the iPad.

I was thinking a bit of having something more geared to a custom server (like Bedlam) where you can then make sure that fixed-pitch fonts are not required, keep descriptions short, minimize the amount of typing required and so on.

But then if you start throwing in icons, images, buttons etc. people will say "but it's not a text MUD".

I'm wondering if the game industry isn't on the cusp of moving in some new direction - what that is, I can't really say. Portal for example, has some interesting ideas.

Let's say you have played World of Warcraft for a few years and are bored with it. Does that mean you will play Warhammer, Age of Conan, Rift, or some of the other MMO games? Or is that just "more of the same"?

- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com

Posted by

Plamzi (4 posts)

Date

Sun 10 Apr 2011 08:00 AM (UTC) [ quote ]

Amended on Sun 10 Apr 2011 08:09 AM (UTC) by Plamzi

Message

Nick,

Thanks for the feedback. We may be moving off-topic but here are some responses:

* The default font was chosen because it fits a lot more text per line. It's easy enough to change to a mono-space font but the only such font available OOB is Courier, and as you can see, readability dramatically drops when you switch to it (because you need to zoom out more).

* On the iPad, last time I checked, there was a $3 app called iPad MUD Client. It claims to offer about the same functionality and I simply can't beat their pricetag.

* You can easily keep the keyboard toggled by hitting "Send" at the top instead of "Go". It's a design choice that I think you'll grow to appreciate.

* You can type 'apphelp' in a session to see the help file and 'appmenu' to go back to main menu at any time. All these commands are covered in the help file, which should have opened when you first started the app.

* To quit an app fully under iOS4+, you have to 2tap Home button while at main menu, press and hold the app icon in task manager, and hit the delete icon that shows up. That's the way the OS works, and apps can't do anything about that... There's no real multitasking on the platform (sigh) and Steve saying so just makes it hard for devs like me to explain to their customers why their app behaves the way it does.

As for the rating, if you get in the iPhone app dev game, you'll quickly realize how little that means. I've had anything from 5 full stars to 2 (the calculation system is that whacky). I don't think it's possible to maintain a high rating on a mobile MUD app - even if it's the best client for the platform, many people will be comparing it to their favorite desktop client - and that, any dev knows, is unfair.

Posted by

Nick Gammon Australia (18,770 posts)

bio Forum Administrator

Date

Sun 10 Apr 2011 07:28 AM (UTC) [ quote ]

Message

Plamzi said:

I really don't see a reason why MUSHClient can't make another strong entry in the GUI app department, although it would have to pick and choose carefully what GUI elements to support.

That's very kind of you, perhaps I should try a simplified version.

Meanwhile, I tried MUDMaster, to see what you have done, and I certainly got it to work. However if I may make a few constructive suggestions, perhaps you would get a higher user rating ...

The default font is proportionally spaced, which makes things like who lists, scores, etc. look weird because they are usually designed for fixed-space fonts. Maybe default to Courier or Monaco or something?
To increase the appeal on iPads, make it a proper iPad app, which would make better use of screen real-estate. As it is, I just hit the x2 button, which just doubles the size of everything.
On the iPad at least, maybe an option to keep the keyboard onscreen? Since MUDs are by nature a text game, I found I had to keep hitting the keypad icon every time I wanted to do something.
The instructions on the iTunes store mention hitting "?" on the home screen to configure. However under the new iPad/iPhone OS, things multi-task. What this means is that you never get back to the home screen. So I couldn't find a way of getting to it (eg. to go to another MUD, or to configure it). Even leaving the app, and starting another, and going back to it, didn't work. I was still just in the middle of my game. Even quitting the game didn't help.

Still, you have shown it can be done! That's great to see. Maybe people can start playing MUDs on the train on the way to work.

- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com

Posted by

Plamzi (4 posts)

Date

Sun 10 Apr 2011 05:45 AM (UTC) [ quote ]

Message

Maybe no-one's watching this thread anymore, but I'd like to say that the design obstacles to mobile MUD clients are surmountable and have been overcome already. I believe both Blowtorch for Android and MUDMaster for iPhone make normal mudding possible. Those of you who believe otherwise, should try them and stick with them for at least a day or so.

Also, there has been a full MUD GUI in the iPhone App Store since Sept. 2009 and hundreds of people have played it normally ever since. I really don't see a reason why MUSHClient can't make another strong entry in the GUI app department, although it would have to pick and choose carefully what GUI elements to support.

Full disclosure: I'm the dev of MUDMaster and Bedlam for iPhone.

Posted by

Mymyc (25 posts)

Date

Mon 21 Mar 2011 06:09 PM (UTC) [ quote ]

Message

I know a guy playing Achaea compiled tintin++ on his mobile device. It was a nokia with arm cpu though.

Posted by

Bast (76 posts)

Date

Fri 04 Feb 2011 03:20 PM (UTC) [ quote ]

Message

There are a few people on Aardwolf using the Blowtorch client on Android. The author has a character on the mud and even has mccp enabled in the client. I haven't used it. Those who use it say it is pretty good.

Bast

Bast

Scripts: http://bastmush.googlecode.com

Posted by

Nick Gammon Australia (18,770 posts)

bio Forum Administrator

Date

Fri 04 Feb 2011 12:43 AM (UTC) [ quote ]

Message

I think we need to define our terms here. If you mean "a client that can play an existing MUD game like Achaea", I think it is pushing it.

As an experiment I tried to fit smallish text across an iPhone screen (in the IDE) and got up to about 50 characters at a font smaller even than the carrier name (which is usually pretty small). Even using something tiny like 8-point Courier the text is pretty tiny (unreadable, you might say). Even then I only fit in about 75 characters.

The problem is a lot of traditional MUDs have text pre-formatted at 80 characters width, and a lot of things (like score, who lists etc.) assume you have at least 80 characters.

Then you have to dedicate some of the screen to an input area, implement scrolling, etc.

It could be done, but it would be so clunky that I think it would just be for interest.

But if you are talking about a "multi-player RPG game" then it is more feasible. You probably need to start from scratch with designed-in limitations (eg. room descriptions designed to be no more than about 40 characters or 2 lines).

You would probably offer limited actions (like N/S/E/W, plus "fight", "equip", "attack" as buttons). You might have a minimap somewhere.

But then someone will object that it isn't a MUD game (not a text game anyway) and that you are just implementing something completely different.

My recent experimenting with microprocessors (with a 4 x 20 character display) shows you can get *something* to work, but with pretty severe design restrictions.

- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com

Posted by

Twisol USA (2,229 posts)

Date

Thu 03 Feb 2011 08:14 PM (UTC) [ quote ]

Message

I think it's really interesting that there's been so much interest in a decent mobile MUD client. Perhaps there's an untapped market lying in wait?

'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol

Posted by

Kaleden (2 posts)

Date

Thu 03 Feb 2011 06:32 PM (UTC) [ quote ]

Message

There's certainly a novelty aspect to being able to say you've completed a few quests while hiking in Denali National Park (had 1G access on the ridges)... or perhaps it's just a sign of being an addict >.>

Still, I've had a lot of fun MUDing from my Android phone. It's great to jump into the game while waiting on a friend or sitting on the bus. I also have triggers notify me during double XP events so I can take advantage of them and massacre a bunch of mobs.

Using the phone to mud is like using a controller to play video games. Sure, you have more control on the desktop, but you can join the game anywhere you want with your phone and it can be just as fun. It probably helps that I have decent sized screen and client to play with, though.

Posted by

Kresslack (70 posts)

Date

Sun 30 Jan 2011 04:52 AM (UTC) [ quote ]

Message

Would have to agree with Connor, I don't think I would be able to effectively play a mud via a smart phone, and it would get a bit annoying. At most, the only thing I would use it for would be to check messages and bulletin items, but lately a few muds are already offering these options directly on their website.

I know that currently IRE offers the ability to read/send messages via their site, and read news items. Of course...they're a corporation with a lot of funds for development, but it can be done. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Posted by

Conner USA (381 posts)

Date

Sat 11 Dec 2010 11:45 PM (UTC) [ quote ]

Message

Maybe that's the angle I was missing. We're trying to create a graphical interface to attract new players into the fold from the phone community since we're struggling so hard to find new players from the PC community.

-=Conner=-
--
Come test your mettle in the Land of Legends at telnet://tcdbbs.zapto.org:4000
or, for a little family oriented medieval fun, come join us at The Castle's Dungeon BBS at telnet://tcdbbs.zapto.org
or, if you just want information about either, check our web page at http://tcdbbs.zapto.org

Posted by

KaVir Germany (114 posts)

Date

Sat 11 Dec 2010 08:38 PM (UTC) [ quote ]

Message

Conner said:
It just seems to me like everyone's in this mad scramble to find a means to connect to muds via gaming consoles and cell phones while the only real practical application behind either is to be able to claim what a l337 coder you are for having found a way to do it.

Well it's not really a new idea. You've already got mobile games like "Final Fantasy IV: The After Years", which has sold around 3 million copies. Then there are games like "Armada: Kingdoms", "Mobile Battles: Reign of Swords", "TibiaME", etc, which are more MMO-like.

But the market is still pretty young, and it's growing VERY fast. I don't think it's surprising that some mud developers fancy a piece of the pie, particularly if they're struggling to draw in players from the existing mud community.

Conner said:
I guess if you could essentially convert your mud into a MMORPG without the real need for a mouse interface (or utilizing the touchscreen interface to simulate/replace the mouse interface) that there might well be a remarkably untapped market out there, but ultimately you've then made your mud into a MMO and are no longer playing in the MUD spectrum anyway so no one would think twice about needing a custom client to reach your mud.

There's no need to "convert" the mud, this is only the client we're talking about - and if you're already running your own mud then the gameplay is already there. This would just be another interface for the same game (much like a fully graphical client mentioned earlier in this thread, which can be used to play a near-stock DikuMUD).

Right now anyone can download MUSHclient and create a GUI for their mud if they want to. I could throw together a fully graphical interface for playing your mud if I wished, but that wouldn't stop your mud from being a mud, particularly if other people continued to play through other clients.

MUSHclient makes this easy, though. It would be nice to see a comparable client for a mobile platform.

Posted by

Conner USA (381 posts)

Date

Sat 11 Dec 2010 01:56 AM (UTC) [ quote ]

Message

I don't know, maybe...

It just seems to me like everyone's in this mad scramble to find a means to connect to muds via gaming consoles and cell phones while the only real practical application behind either is to be able to claim what a l337 coder you are for having found a way to do it.

As I said earlier, I could see being able to use your cell phone to connect as an emergency stop gap measure while you're on the road as an admin, but even for that it'd have to be a last resort mainly because of the small screen and difficulty using a cell phone keyboard to replace a real keyboard.

I guess if you could essentially convert your mud into a MMORPG without the real need for a mouse interface (or utilizing the touchscreen interface to simulate/replace the mouse interface) that there might well be a remarkably untapped market out there, but ultimately you've then made your mud into a MMO and are no longer playing in the MUD spectrum anyway so no one would think twice about needing a custom client to reach your mud.

It's not even just the small screen issue with a particular phone, it's the concept in general of wanting to be able to connect to the mud via phone in the first place. Again, I don't know, maybe I'm just not seeing this from the right perspective. :shrug:

-=Conner=-
--
Come test your mettle in the Land of Legends at telnet://tcdbbs.zapto.org:4000
or, for a little family oriented medieval fun, come join us at The Castle's Dungeon BBS at telnet://tcdbbs.zapto.org
or, if you just want information about either, check our web page at http://tcdbbs.zapto.org

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