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Posted by Larkin   (278 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #60 on Thu 30 Sep 2010 02:31 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
My code is open source, hosted on Assembla. I have a few screenshots of some places where I improved the user interface. My code is far from complete, but I'm pleased with how far it got.

http://www.assembla.com/spaces/mudder


(I know this isn't really the place for this, so I apologize for the little derail.)
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Posted by WillFa   USA  (517 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #61 on Thu 30 Sep 2010 03:21 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]

Amended on Thu 30 Sep 2010 03:31 AM (UTC) by WillFa

Message
Nick Gammon said:

WillFa said:

... he's much worse than you about keeping Git repositories updated.


Bearing in mind that implies I am bad, and he is worse. When I make a change these days, I test it, and as soon as it looks reasonable, I do "git commit" and "git push". Certainly for each release of the executable, I also make sure that the corresponding source is fully committed at the same time.


Or an ambiguous way to say you're awesome and he sucks... As you pointed out, you're very dutiful and commendable about it, so I'll attribute your inference of "you're bad" because you may have felt ganged up on, or something. Wasn't my intention. (I wonder if that's a colloquial difference. "Taco Bell is much worse than lobster, and McDonald's is even worse than that." Around here, 'even worse' would carry your inference. 'much worse' is just a relative statement with no subjective starting point. Yaaaa, I'm involved in ANOTHER pedantic, semantic argument on here!)


Nick said:

Willfa said:

... according to the Lua FAQ; Lua isn't Open Source.


See this page on the Lua site:

http://www.lua.org/license.html

First paragraph (in part):

Lua License said:

Lua is certified Open Source software.




From http://www.lua.org/faq.html

1.9 Do you accept patches?

We encourage discussions based on tested code solutions for problems and enhancements, but we never incorporate third-party code verbatim. We always try to understand the issue and the proposed solution and then, if we choose to address the issue, we provide our own code. Lua is not an open-source project, with code contributed by several people. All code is written by us. See also the previous question.





Ok, I shouldn't have capitalized it.
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,770 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #62 on Thu 30 Sep 2010 03:38 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
WillFa said:

Lua FAQ said:

Lua is not an open-source project, with code contributed by several people. All code is written by us. See also the previous question.



With my psychic powers I knew you would raise that, because otherwise why would you have made that claim?

However I pre-empted you by posting to the Lua mailing list, pointing out that the two statements contradicted each other. The response was:

Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo said:

> http://www.lua.org/about.html
>
> "Lua is not an open-source project, with code contributed by several people: all code is written by us.".

This is indeed misleading and will be removed by tomorrow.


In essence I was correct. Lua is Open Source.
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,770 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #63 on Thu 30 Sep 2010 03:43 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]

Amended on Thu 30 Sep 2010 03:44 AM (UTC) by Nick Gammon

Message
WillFa said:

Yaaaa, I'm involved in ANOTHER pedantic, semantic argument on here!


That's nothing to what I started on the Lua mailing list. They are down to arguing about a comma (actually, *the* comma) in the "open source" statement.
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,770 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #64 on Thu 30 Sep 2010 03:52 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]

Amended on Thu 30 Sep 2010 03:53 AM (UTC) by Nick Gammon

Message
WillFa said:

... you're awesome ...


Why, thank you!

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/worse

Worse effectively means "more bad" - so to be worse, you start off with badness.

You don't say for example, "Film A was really good, but Film B was worse". It would be more like "Film A was really good, but Film B was less good" (not more bad).

But perhaps we are getting carried away here. :-)
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by WillFa   USA  (517 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #65 on Thu 30 Sep 2010 04:05 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
Nick Gammon said:

WillFa said:

... you're awesome ...


Why, thank you!

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/worse

Worse effectively means "more bad" - so to be worse, you start off with badness.

You don't say for example, "Film A was really good, but Film B was worse". It would be more like "Film A was really good, but Film B was less good" (not more bad).

But perhaps we are getting carried away here. :-)



Disregarding our frequent praise, sycophancy, and asskissing, you admit you're not perfect - so there is some degree of 'bad' in you. It may not (certainly not in my estimation) be one of your predominate traits, but there is in fact some 'bad' that enables the relative comparison...

(We're not carried away until until you make a WoW character named LessBadThanPerfect)

;)







Speaking of arguments about commas... I read this the other day and it made me laugh:

From http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/o
Quote:

Oxford comma
a comma before the final "and" in lists: straightforward ones (he ate ham, eggs and chips) do not need one, but sometimes it can help the reader (he ate cereal, kippers, bacon, eggs, toast and marmalade, and tea), and sometimes it is essential:

compare
I dedicate this book to my parents, Martin Amis, and JK Rowling

with
I dedicate this book to my parents, Martin Amis and JK Rowling

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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,770 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #66 on Thu 30 Sep 2010 04:11 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]

Amended on Thu 30 Sep 2010 04:12 AM (UTC) by Nick Gammon

Message
Further to my comments about not wanting to spend $1000+ on upgrading Visual Studio, there was an interesting opinion on the Lua mailing list:

Lua mailing list said:

Microsoft doesn't really want independant software developers (they only hurt their business), they want to sell a product: Visual Studio. And the crt is the doc-format of the compiler: every release a new version so that when one developer updates all other have to update, too.


This is the impression I get. I have already spent many thousands of dollars on Microsoft products over the years, including MSDN. However that doesn't seem to count for much. Granted that software I paid around $500 to $1000 for has some bugs, I would expect those to be fixed as part of the rather substantial cost of the software. Not to have to pay $1000 again for another version in 2005, and then another version in 2010. And remember the saying "Upgrade your software - exchange your old bugs for new ones".

And the other part of the opinion I quoted was the relentless pressure - now that Twisol and Worstje have chosen to get a newer version (perhaps for them their first version), there is the pressure on me to upgrade "to keep up". This is the: "when one developer updates all other have to update, too".

Of course, Microsoft won't mind that will they?
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Twisol   USA  (2,229 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #67 on Thu 30 Sep 2010 04:45 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]

Amended on Thu 30 Sep 2010 04:46 AM (UTC) by Twisol

Message
Nick Gammon said:
Not to have to pay $1000 again for another version in 2005, and then another version in 2010. And remember the saying "Upgrade your software - exchange your old bugs for new ones".

It's a $300 (edit: USD) upgrade from 2005 to 2010. I'm pretty sure I mentioned that.

Nick Gammon said:
[...] now that Twisol and Worstje have chosen to get a newer version (perhaps for them their first version) [...]

It is my first version, yeah. Though, as I intend for programming to be my career, I am definitely considering getting the upgrade.

Nick Gammon said:
Worse effectively means "more bad" - so to be worse, you start off with badness.

I like "I could care less" a lot. I could care 100% and still care less. :)
'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol
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Posted by WillFa   USA  (517 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #68 on Thu 30 Sep 2010 04:57 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
Nick Gammon said:

Further to my comments about not wanting to spend $1000+ on upgrading Visual Studio, there was an interesting opinion on the Lua mailing list:

Lua mailing list said:

Microsoft doesn't really want independant software developers (they only hurt their business), they want to sell a product: Visual Studio. And the crt is the doc-format of the compiler: every release a new version so that when one developer updates all other have to update, too.


This is the impression I get. I have already spent many thousands of dollars on Microsoft products over the years, including MSDN. However that doesn't seem to count for much. Granted that software I paid around $500 to $1000 for has some bugs, I would expect those to be fixed as part of the rather substantial cost of the software. Not to have to pay $1000 again for another version in 2005, and then another version in 2010. And remember the saying "Upgrade your software - exchange your old bugs for new ones".

And the other part of the opinion I quoted was the relentless pressure - now that Twisol and Worstje have chosen to get a newer version (perhaps for them their first version), there is the pressure on me to upgrade "to keep up". This is the: "when one developer updates all other have to update, too".

Of course, Microsoft won't mind that will they?


So, ummm... Isn't this the big argument for ditching MFC for STL and getting away from VS all together?
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Posted by WillFa   USA  (517 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #69 on Thu 30 Sep 2010 05:02 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
Twisol said:

I like "I could care less" a lot. I could care 100% and still care less. :)


Right. Which is why originally, and by people's tone of voice what they mean to say is, "I couldn't care less."
0% caring.
Not at all.
Zilch.
Even expending the effort to hand over a rat's patootie is more than I care to spare.
Nada.
None.





My buddy asked me if I understood the difference between ignorance and apathy. I replied "I don't know and I don't care."
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Posted by Twisol   USA  (2,229 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #70 on Thu 30 Sep 2010 05:03 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]

Amended on Thu 30 Sep 2010 05:05 AM (UTC) by Twisol

Message
WillFa said:
So, ummm... Isn't this the big argument for ditching MFC for STL and getting away from VS all together?

MFC != STL. We'd have to move to a totally new GUI framework, such as wxWidgets. Nick's said several times that it would probably be better just to start from scratch, and I agree.

WillFa said:
My buddy asked me if I understood the difference between ignorance and apathy. I replied "I don't know and I don't care."

*high five*
'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,770 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #71 on Thu 30 Sep 2010 05:28 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]

Amended on Thu 30 Sep 2010 05:30 AM (UTC) by Nick Gammon

Message
Twisol said:

MFC != STL.


Correct. As I see it MFC provides a number of features to developers:


  • Helper routines (eg. lists, string classes). These could be readily converted to STL because that provides similar things.

  • Helpful GUI management of dialogs. This was very helpful when I didn't know that much about instantiating dialogs, and exchanging data to/from the C++ structures into the dialog box, and back again.

    There is low-level stuff like checking numeric fields are numbers, etc.

  • Management of Windows structures and messages (for example, making frame windows, child windows, splitter windows).

  • Encapsulation of stuff like device contexts, effectively hiding some of the low-level housekeeping from you.

  • Management of things like menus, dimming menu items that are not in context right now and so on.

  • A nice GUI interface (probably much nicer than the one I have) which simplifies a lot of the coding effort.



STL doesn't address any but the first, because it isn't a Windows-based (or indeed a GUI-based) thing.

So as Twisol said, you would probably need to move to wxWindows (or just do it all "by hand").

That would be such a huge change you may as well just start again. And when you started again you would seriously consider making it a Unicode app (thus eliminating these problems with text views), seriously revisit the scripting (like Twisol wanted to do), rework the GUI interface, and redesign a whole heap of stuff with the benefit of hindsight.
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,770 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #72 on Thu 30 Sep 2010 11:06 PM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
Worstje said:

Regarding the way you reverted things...

You are aware the _only_ thing you had to do to get MUSHclient to revert to its 'classic' look was remove the .manifest? The manifest is what causes the v6 controls to be loaded. No manifest, no v6, no unicode, no problem.


And replying to your comments here:

http://github.com/nickgammon/mushclient/commit/7b82bc9a

If I understand correctly, you don't need it all reverted. The only thing that went wrong (the edit control) was for me, not you, right? So the changes to the way the edit control was loaded doesn't need to be done?

So can you be more explicit about what changes you really need? You kept saying it was my version of MFC that is broken.

If I revert the changes I am not sure whether that will then break the behaviour for other people.

Let me put it another way - what is to stop you just grabbing the source and whipping out a custom build? Just merge your theming changes in with my latest source - which I always release.
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Worstje   Netherlands  (867 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #73 on Thu 30 Sep 2010 11:30 PM (UTC)  [ quote  ]

Amended on Thu 30 Sep 2010 11:34 PM (UTC) by Worstje

Message
None of the changes to the code that I made will break your build as long as there is no .manifest in your directory that specifies the usage of the common controls v6.

The THEME_GLUE fixes a graphical glitch that is visible only for themed users, and that will have zero effect on users that are not seeing a themed environment in the first place. The uxtheme.dll dependancy is (as the code explains) a fully dynamic one, meaning it fails completely silently if not available, and the nature of the uxtheme.dll is to provide visual gimmicks when appropriate. If the environment is not right (user doesn't have it enabled, common controls not loaded, etc) they resolve to NOOPs. (And if you wish / don't trust that, you could even wrap the themeglue.h file into a conditional for excluding your version, although I see no reason for that.)

I agree I would not need your VC6++ bugfixes reverted. Sorry for the unclarity on that subject (although I believe they do no harm when common controls aren't loaded).

So the only thing that I would like to see reverted are the themeglue changes as well as the #pragma's involving the linker. (When I originally saw your commit, I admit I didn't dive too deeply into it - I thought you had reverted all my theme-related commits like the tipdlg, world prefs and global prefs.)

Quote:
Let me put it another way - what is to stop you just grabbing the source and whipping out a custom build? Just merge your theming changes in with my latest source - which I always release.


The last few times I attempted to merge my theming changes with your master I kept getting merge conflicts for every single time I tried to 'sync' up with your branch. I probably did something wrong to make the auto-merging fail on the same files every time I merged after you brought out commits. In the end, it just seems easier and more sensible to keep the changes in the primary MUSHclient repository since they aren't affecting your build anyway if you keep the manifest excluded from the installation. And if you were to put the manifest for versions that pre-date any of my theming-related commits, you'd have the bugs with CEditview as well.
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (18,770 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #74 on Fri 01 Oct 2010 01:02 AM (UTC)  [ quote  ]
Message
You asked me on GitHub:

Worstje said:

Is there a reason you insist on reimplementing / seperating fixes rather than merging them with the full support of the git toolkit?


And in response to my recent suggestion:

Nick Gammon said:

Just merge your theming changes in with my latest source - which I always release.


You reply:

Worstje said:

The last few times I attempted to merge my theming changes with your master I kept getting merge conflicts for every single time I tried to 'sync' up with your branch.


So without wanting to sound too snaky, you ask why I don't just do things the "Git way" but admit that you yourself have problems doing just that.

So please bear with me when I seem to cut and paste for no apparent reason, rather than just re-applying your commits.
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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