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 Entire forum ➜ MUSHclient ➜ Plugins ➜ trying to make atcp2 plugin to work
trying to make atcp2 plugin to work

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Posted by Lasher   USA  (22 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #105 on Thu 29 Jul 2010 09:40 PM (UTC)

Amended on Thu 29 Jul 2010 09:41 PM (UTC) by Lasher

Message
Aylorian said:
From Server:
comm.channel { "channel": "chat", "player": "Lasher", "msg": "This is a test message" }


Twisol said:

(sent by server)
Comm.Channel.Message {channel="clt9", who="Soludra", message="Blah blah blah"}


Cool, presented slightly differently, but same message!
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Posted by Twisol   USA  (2,257 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #106 on Thu 29 Jul 2010 09:58 PM (UTC)
Message
Ah yeah, I used Lua table notation for some bizzare reason. ^_^; Didn't realize I had done that...
'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (23,133 posts)  Bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #107 on Thu 29 Jul 2010 10:12 PM (UTC)
Message
Aylorian said:

From Server:

comm.channel { "channel": "chat", "player": "Lasher", "msg": "This is a test message" }



I agree with Aylorian on this one. Mixing chat messages between the ATCP protocol and normal text seems to me to defeat the whole idea. Using a protocol as in the example above, it is easy to:


  • Identify chat messages (including the message text itself)
  • Display it or not
  • Display it in a different place (eg. a miniwindow, or separate window of some sort)
  • Display it in a different colour (or partly coloured, eg. player name one colour, message another colour)
  • Any triggers designed to match the message text can be applied reliably to the "msg" part.
  • Any triggers (eg. gags) designed to match the player name can be reliably applied


Separating out chat messages into "a chat message follows", "some random text" and "a chat message has ended" seems to defeat most or all of that.

- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (23,133 posts)  Bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #108 on Thu 29 Jul 2010 10:13 PM (UTC)
Message
Twisol said:

Ah yeah, I used Lua table notation for some bizzare reason. ^_^; Didn't realize I had done that...


Maybe you just love Lua?
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Twisol   USA  (2,257 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #109 on Thu 29 Jul 2010 10:22 PM (UTC)
Message
Nick Gammon said:
I agree with Aylorian on this one.

I think everyone agrees with Aylorian on this one. ~_^

Nick Gammon said:
Maybe you just love Lua?

No maybe about it!
'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol
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Posted by Lasher   USA  (22 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #110 on Thu 29 Jul 2010 11:16 PM (UTC)
Message

Off topic, but I updated my profile to change my name. Speaking of "bugs" completely not worth fixing - quoted text doesn't update the name :)

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Posted by Twisol   USA  (2,257 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #111 on Thu 29 Jul 2010 11:35 PM (UTC)
Message
Quotes refer to a name, not an ID. Not so much a bug as an unimplemented feature. :D
'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (23,133 posts)  Bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #112 on Thu 29 Jul 2010 11:40 PM (UTC)
Message
Twisol said:

I think everyone agrees with Aylorian on this one. ~_^


You mean, Lasher. <grin>
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Twisol   USA  (2,257 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #113 on Thu 29 Jul 2010 11:52 PM (UTC)
Message
Asdfasdfasdf.
'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol
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Posted by David Haley   USA  (3,881 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #114 on Fri 30 Jul 2010 05:57 AM (UTC)
Message
Quote:
It takes some extra code that surely would be tested, but once implemented, would likely be able to be used forever.

We could implement any number of things that, once implemented and tested, would be fine. The question is whether those are really the most productive uses of our time.

Another way to look at this is to measure the amount of trouble this will cause for users vs. the amount of trouble it costs to develop, test, deploy, etc.
David Haley aka Ksilyan
Head Programmer,
Legends of the Darkstone

http://david.the-haleys.org
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Posted by Larkin   (278 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #115 on Fri 30 Jul 2010 08:01 PM (UTC)
Message
I believe that the start tag, plain text, end tag method was used to avoid sending the chat text twice. I mean, getting the OOB message can be quite handy, but you still have to send the message in the normal stream, too. So, what's the point of getting the message via ATCP/GMCP at all when it's pretty much just duplicate information?
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Posted by Bast   (78 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #116 on Fri 30 Jul 2010 08:26 PM (UTC)
Message
Larkin said:

I believe that the start tag, plain text, end tag method was used to avoid sending the chat text twice. I mean, getting the OOB message can be quite handy, but you still have to send the message in the normal stream, too. So, what's the point of getting the message via ATCP/GMCP at all when it's pretty much just duplicate information?


As an implementation detail, I would hope that if I ask for a channel through ATCP2/GMCP, then I don't get it in the normal stream. I am asking for it so that I can present it to the user in another way.

Bast
Bast

Scripts: http://github.com/endavis
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Posted by Worstje   Netherlands  (899 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #117 on Fri 30 Jul 2010 08:28 PM (UTC)

Amended on Fri 30 Jul 2010 08:29 PM (UTC) by Worstje

Message
Is it duplicate? The output text is likely modified by adding server-side wrapping to it, just to name something. The other part is that, assuming you do it on a line-basis, you still have mixed data on the same line. If you suggest putting the OOB messages as if they were some sort of styleruns... well, as I said before, you're using the wrong technology.

OOB = Out of Band. Not part of the main text stream, as to keep maximum compatibility and to 100% cater to the scripts that need to deal with said data. Once you base it on the output, there's stuff like different lines, ordering, wrapping which may or may not be intentional, and for that matter information that is totally spurious.

So is it necessary to double the information? In my eyes, no. Once you decide you don't want the stuff in the main text stream anymore, and in some sort of window, and decide to user the OOB messages for that, you can turn said channels off for that medium ICly as they're a completely seperately 'negotiated' affair.

Edit: So maybe that Comm thing needs another feature.... 'supplemental' or 'replacement', which says whether the messages ought to replace the standard text output, or be given as an extra thing.
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Posted by Larkin   (278 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #118 on Fri 30 Jul 2010 08:36 PM (UTC)
Message
There is precedent for duplicate data, primarily the prompt information. Enabling ATCP doesn't suddenly cause your prompts to disappear. For 100% consistency, ATCP should only ever supplement existing MUD text, not supplant it.

I use the configuration option in Lusternia that removes all newlines normally resulting from server-side wordwrapping, so that's not an issue. Color is also not an issue because triggers can already ignore that. So, what do I gain from an ATCP packet with channel messages? Probably nothing at all.

It's little issues like this that make standards groups go nuts, as we've all witnessed with this particular standard already. :)
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Posted by Lasher   USA  (22 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #119 on Fri 30 Jul 2010 09:02 PM (UTC)
Message
Larkin said:

So, what do I gain from an ATCP packet with channel messages? Probably nothing at all.


There are two main advantages with OOB data for me:

1. The player doesn't miss important messages because they happen to be in a note editor or similar.

2. The ability to send data in a format that lends itself well to machine parsing without spamming said data to the screen.

The first of these benefits does apply to channel communication too, although on some MUDs may not be an issue depending on what type of 'quiet' modes that MUD has available.

Other than this, I would agree that there is very little value in GMCP channels vs just capturing the main output. There are other ways around it of course, such as a "send channels even when in note mode" config option.

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