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Code tag on Firefox

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Posted by David Haley   USA  (3,881 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #15 on Sat 05 Mar 2005 08:21 AM (UTC)
Message
Yeah. The bug isn't so much the funny display, but the inconsistent display and how it changes after refresh etc.

David Haley aka Ksilyan
Head Programmer,
Legends of the Darkstone

http://david.the-haleys.org
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Posted by Zeno   USA  (2,871 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #16 on Sun 27 Mar 2005 04:42 AM (UTC)
Message
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=284792

I saved this first page, and uploaded it there. All but (obviously) the images remained. Yet the problem does not exist. Only here.

Zeno McDohl,
Owner of Bleached InuYasha Galaxy
http://www.biyg.org
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Posted by Zeno   USA  (2,871 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #17 on Thu 01 Dec 2005 08:03 PM (UTC)

Amended on Thu 01 Dec 2005 08:04 PM (UTC) by Zeno

Message
After updating to 1.5, I still notice this problem. So I asked around a bit.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure using a font element there isn't valid. Who knows what will happen when you use crazy html. Wink

W3C Markup Validation Service wrote:
Error Line 223 column 23: document type does not allow element "FONT" here.

<pre><code><font size=2>

how about
Code:
<code style="font-size: larger">...
or whatever size is appropriate.


http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.gammon.com.au/forum/bbshowpost.php%3Fbbsubject_id%3D6085%26page%3D999999

Perhaps you aren't suppose to use font tags in the code tag?

Zeno McDohl,
Owner of Bleached InuYasha Galaxy
http://www.biyg.org
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Posted by Samson   USA  (683 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #18 on Fri 02 Dec 2005 01:18 AM (UTC)
Message
Perhaps an even bigger problem being that there is no valid doctype or character encoding in the html either. Without the doctype the browser falls into "quirks mode" and it basically becomes a free-for-all. The behaviour end up being determined at the whim of the browser.

SmaugMuds.org: http://www.smaugmuds.org - The Smaug MUDs Community Center

"The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth." -- George Orwell, 1984
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Posted by Zeno   USA  (2,871 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #19 on Fri 02 Dec 2005 11:40 AM (UTC)
Message
I tested it locally, changing the source to <code style="font-size: larger"> as suggested, and it seems to be fixed.

Zeno McDohl,
Owner of Bleached InuYasha Galaxy
http://www.biyg.org
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (21,607 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #20 on Fri 02 Dec 2005 07:32 PM (UTC)
Message
OK, the pressure's on, I can see that. :)

The problem from my point of view is that the code tags are not generated in a single place, for historical and other reasons.

For example, when I do HTML inside a forum post (which is not *that* often) I manually insert the code tags.

Also the static web pages will have them all over the place. The forum tags (where you use the [code] tag) are naturally generated in a single place.

I'll try to fix it.

- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (21,607 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #21 on Fri 02 Dec 2005 07:59 PM (UTC)
Message
Quote:

Anyone else here have a problem with Firefox and the code tag? I've viewed code tags with Firefox on multiple computers, so it may be a Firefox problem.

This text looks very small in Firefox


Now here's a funny thing. I downloaded the latest version of Firefox, and the "code" text looks OK, much the same as in Internet Explorer.

I can work on the validation errors, but I can't see a major difference to the way the forum appears in the two browsers.

- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Zeno   USA  (2,871 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #22 on Fri 02 Dec 2005 08:06 PM (UTC)

Amended on Fri 02 Dec 2005 08:08 PM (UTC) by Zeno

Message
Try a refresh a few times. Like Ksilyan said, it's a weird inconsistent display issue.

I could care less about validation errors, the only issue with the site that bugs me is this code display issue. Actually I really don't even notice any other issues.

Here's what it looks like normally:
http://www.rebirthseph.noobify.com/ff_font1.bmp

This is when it becomes a problem:
http://www.rebirthseph.noobify.com/ff_font2.bmp

It seems to randomize between normal font size and that one small font size.

Zeno McDohl,
Owner of Bleached InuYasha Galaxy
http://www.biyg.org
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (21,607 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #23 on Fri 02 Dec 2005 08:49 PM (UTC)
Message
Quote:

Try a refresh a few times. Like Ksilyan said, it's a weird inconsistent display issue.


To be honest, if refreshing randomly displays different data, this is definitely a bug in the browser. Surely, no matter how bad the HTML is, it should be rendered consistently?

Quote:

how about
Code:
<code style="font-size: larger">...
or whatever size is appropriate.


I have done that, see how that goes (this is for forum [code] tags only right now).

It looks OK in Firefox, however now in IE I get the weird effect that the font looks too *small* for [code] tags, but OK for [mono] tags. That is really strange. The only difference is that the [code] tags use the <pre> tag, which is just supposed to retain linebreaks and indenting. Oh well, I'll research that some more.

Quote:

Perhaps an even bigger problem being that there is no valid doctype or character encoding in the html either.


The HTML header now has a DOCTYPE and character encoding tag.




- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Samson   USA  (683 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #24 on Sat 03 Dec 2005 09:08 PM (UTC)
Message
Quote:
I could care less about validation errors, the only issue with the site that bugs me is this code display issue. Actually I really don't even notice any other issues.


The only reason I mention the validation errors is that they may, in their cryptic wisdom, be pointing to the reason why this is happening. I've seen validation errors trigger inconsistent behaviour in Firefox, IE, Opera, and in Konqueror. So it certainly won't *HURT* to correct those.

As for the specific issue in this case, I've seen the code tag inconsistency in Firefox, IE, and Opera, and every time it changes it's been after either a page refresh or clicking to a new topic. So that leads me to beleive the fault is somewhere in the html, not in the browsers.

SmaugMuds.org: http://www.smaugmuds.org - The Smaug MUDs Community Center

"The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth." -- George Orwell, 1984
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (21,607 posts)  [Biography] bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #25 on Sun 04 Dec 2005 02:39 AM (UTC)
Message
I would like my pages to validate correctly, but the major problem is that, in my ignorance of HTML when I first started writing them, I did something like this:


<html>
<head>
<title>Page title</title>
</head>
<body">
<FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva" SIZE="-1">

<!--  entire rest of page here -->

</font>
</body>
</html>


Now basically I don't think you are supposed to do that - try to make a font global for the page. I think a lot of the validation errors arise from that.

I experimented for a while with CSS, but with pretty variable results. Like the font would switch to some ugly default in things like the "login" dialog box, or lots of places.

To do it properly would really take a pretty big rewrite, paying close attention to the current HTML standards, and keeping a lot of things (like colours) as separate control-file (or user file) entries.

If someone can demonstrate a simple way of changing the page (just take the generated HTML and play with it), so that the validation errors go away, but without major changes, then I would be pleased to hear from them.

I have fixed a few things in the last few days, like making <hr> to be <hr/>, <br> to be <br/>, <img blah blah> to be <img blah blah/> and so on. Plus, of course, the doctype and character encoding mentioned earlier.

- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Samson   USA  (683 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #26 on Sun 04 Dec 2005 04:08 AM (UTC)
Message
Since you are validating for HTML 4.01 you should stick to using <br> and <hr>. The trailing slash thing is only necessary to validate for the XHTML 1.0 and 1.1 standards.

You can of course use CSS, and it may help to do so. Cuts down on alot of the redundant stuff. Though I am no guru myself with HTML/CSS I can lend a hand with what I have picked up from my own pages and from development work on QSF.

SmaugMuds.org: http://www.smaugmuds.org - The Smaug MUDs Community Center

"The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth." -- George Orwell, 1984
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Posted by Samson   USA  (683 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #27 on Sun 04 Dec 2005 04:14 AM (UTC)
Message
May be able to start off with the simple stuff - like this:

<a href="/forum/"><img src="/images/forum.gif" alt="[Help/forum]" width=95 height=27 border=0/></a>

The img tag in 4.01 also does not require the / before closing the tag. The width, height, and border attributes should also be enclosed in quotes. The validator isn't complaining but it could still be influencing things.

SmaugMuds.org: http://www.smaugmuds.org - The Smaug MUDs Community Center

"The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth." -- George Orwell, 1984
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Posted by Zeno   USA  (2,871 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #28 on Sun 04 Dec 2005 03:42 PM (UTC)

Amended on Sun 04 Dec 2005 03:43 PM (UTC) by Zeno

Message
Quote:
To be honest, if refreshing randomly displays different data, this is definitely a bug in the browser. Surely, no matter how bad the HTML is, it should be rendered consistently?


This is what someone said on the Mozilla forums when I brought up the random display:
Quote:
Zeno, if you throw Firefox into quirks mode (say for example you leave out the DOCTYPE declaration, which is a great way to confuse a standards-strict browser) you create the condiditons for the possibility that it will render differently at each request. If you make typographic errors in the code, you have the possibility that it will make a randomly alternate pick each time of what the code might be. Which, given where your typo is, would achieve pretty much the effect you are seeing.

I'm not sure it could fairly be described as a bug in the browser that it renders incorrect code incorrectly in a random manner, rather than incorrectly in a consistent manner, given that it makes no claims regarding rendering incorrect code at all.

Zeno McDohl,
Owner of Bleached InuYasha Galaxy
http://www.biyg.org
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Posted by Samson   USA  (683 posts)  [Biography] bio
Date Reply #29 on Sun 04 Dec 2005 06:57 PM (UTC)
Message
I'm working with a source capture of one of these pages to see if I can quash the validation errors, but if there is a current version of the forum software somewhere available then it would be very easy to solve this through editing the templates and avoid missing something.

SmaugMuds.org: http://www.smaugmuds.org - The Smaug MUDs Community Center

"The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth." -- George Orwell, 1984
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