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 Entire forum ➜ MUSHclient ➜ Development ➜ Improvements to plugin callbacks
Improvements to plugin callbacks

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Posted by Twisol   USA  (2,257 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #30 on Sun 19 Sep 2010 06:55 PM (UTC)
Message
Worstje said:
Twisol, you have a habit of getting carried away in technical perfection. Hell, I have that a bit myself but have in the past few years been learning to deal with it a bit (or so I hope.) Since the deviation of such an utopian perfection is repeatedly brought up in near-circular arguments, I can see why Nick is defensive.

Mmm... You're probably right. It's just hard to understand the code in its current incarnation. The majority of my non-fix changes just aim to - incrementally - fix that.

Thank you for being a calm neutral observer, hehe.
'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol
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Posted by David Haley   USA  (3,881 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #31 on Mon 20 Sep 2010 12:05 AM (UTC)
Message
One can gain understanding of code without rewriting it to be how one would have written it.
David Haley aka Ksilyan
Head Programmer,
Legends of the Darkstone

http://david.the-haleys.org
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Posted by Twisol   USA  (2,257 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #32 on Mon 20 Sep 2010 12:52 AM (UTC)

Amended on Mon 20 Sep 2010 12:59 AM (UTC) by Twisol

Message
David, didn't you say you haven't actually worked with the MUSHclient source? Advice is wonderful, but yours feels really out of context here. I -understand- the code fine these days; that doesn't mean it's easy to understand. That also doesn't mean we won't make silly mistakes that could have been prevented with encapsulation and easing out some of the coupling.

[EDIT]: Rewriting it the way I would have written it would have two end results: (1) It would break compatibility. (2) It would never get done.
'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol
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Posted by David Haley   USA  (3,881 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #33 on Mon 20 Sep 2010 05:50 AM (UTC)
Message
I'll tell you what, Twisol: you go produce a large piece of software written such that "silly mistakes" are impossible to make, producing a framework that is magically decoupled, encapsulated and orthogonal (you can add more buzzwords if you like) while actually solving some problem for end-users. My advice is not at all out of context here. I do not work on the MUSHclient source but I have worked on a good number of large projects, both ones I started and ones inherited from other peoples, enough to know that you're not focusing on the useful tasks here and are saying things that just don't make sense. :-/ You're using magic words from some theory appealing to some aesthetic of yours, but have not actually produced some project that puts them into practice.

Your own code will always be easier for you to understand, precisely because you wrote it. Do not mistake that phenomenon for a refactoring that actually solves real-world, pragmatic problems that cause bugs in a large piece of software.

I am sorry if I sound snippy but I am a little tired of the holier-than-thou attitude that you have been projecting with respect to how things "should" be done. You keep talking about how you want everything to be this-or-that, etc., criticizing others for sloppy coding standards, poor software design, and yet you seem unwilling to actually go do this stuff yourself. So you say that the project would never get done if you go did it the way you would have wanted? Well, maybe there's a lesson there.

I would very much welcome and even encourage you to prove me wrong, and I say that sincerely. But in the meantime, there's been enough talking.
David Haley aka Ksilyan
Head Programmer,
Legends of the Darkstone

http://david.the-haleys.org
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Posted by Twisol   USA  (2,257 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #34 on Mon 20 Sep 2010 06:03 AM (UTC)

Amended on Mon 20 Sep 2010 06:04 AM (UTC) by Twisol

Message
David Haley said:
yet you seem unwilling to actually go do this stuff yourself.

I'll take the other stuff, but this one seems ambiguous to me. Do you mean I'm not actually trying to do this now? The whole reason we're having this discussion is because I'm trying to do it. Do you mean actually doing my own project this way? Okay: I'll take that one too.

I think you're exaggerating my claims though. I mean, impossible to make mistakes? "magically decoupled"? I'm saying we don't have enough of these things, not that we need them 100% everywhere.

Anyways, you're right. Enough talking. At this rate I wouldn't be surprised if Nick banned me just to get some peace and quiet.
'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol
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Posted by David Haley   USA  (3,881 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #35 on Mon 20 Sep 2010 06:08 AM (UTC)
Message
Yes, I meant doing your own project, not the changes in this thread. Re: mistakes, you said that mistakes would be prevented by encapsulation and "easing out coupling".

I think there's lots of great work that can come out of all of this. I just don't think this particular avenue is the most productive.
David Haley aka Ksilyan
Head Programmer,
Legends of the Darkstone

http://david.the-haleys.org
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Posted by Twisol   USA  (2,257 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #36 on Mon 20 Sep 2010 06:14 AM (UTC)

Amended on Mon 20 Sep 2010 06:15 AM (UTC) by Twisol

Message
David Haley said:
Yes, I meant doing your own project, not the changes in this thread. Re: mistakes, you said that mistakes would be prevented by encapsulation and "easing out coupling".

Yes, I believe that a number of them can be prevented. It's like the age-old argument against globals, isn't it? The more you restrict access to a datum, the more you can be certain how it actually behaves. It moves the onus of good behavior from the programmer to the compiler. But I certainly don't expect these things to make mistakes or bugs impossible... That would be silly.

I guess I'll be spending more time on Aspect, at any rate. :)
'Soludra' on Achaea

Blog: http://jonathan.com/
GitHub: http://github.com/Twisol
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