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Help with using jaws

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Posted by H2359   (27 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #15 on Sun 19 Apr 2020 04:17 PM (UTC)
Message
I already found them from another source but it might help for Nick in the other person that we’re trying to figure out how it works to be able to get a better understanding of it
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (23,072 posts)  Bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #16 on Mon 20 Apr 2020 06:08 AM (UTC)

Amended on Mon 20 Apr 2020 06:09 AM (UTC) by Nick Gammon

Message

I am still contemplating how this might work. I think I have a reasonably workable idea.

  • If you press some key (let’s call it the replay key) then the program re-speaks the most recent line, and also “bookmarks” it.

  • If you press the key again it interrupts the speaking (if any) of the previous line and goes back one line from the bookmark and speaks that line.

  • Keeps doing the above until you hear the line you are interested in. Each time it is relative to the bookmarked line, so there is no confusion about how many lines to go back.

  • Newly arrived lines are buffered and not spoken while you are doing this.

  • After some condition is met (eg. pressing a “done” key, or 5 seconds elapsing) we consider that you have finished reviewing previous lines. At this point, it then speaks all the buffered lines, so you don’t miss what was coming in while you were reviewing old text.

Does this sound OK?

- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Kvothe   (8 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #17 on Mon 20 Apr 2020 09:02 AM (UTC)
Message
Here I leave the plugins, in case they can contribute something.
The .dll and the. bp you have to paste them in the root of mushclient, is what the plugin communicates with the readers. The rest are normal plugins.
I think watching this work, maybe you could do something or even add them to the plugins that come with mushclient.
In MushReader there are some messages translated into Spanish, but they could be put back in English. Sorry but I don't have the original copy where everything is in English.
Link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rjqjodkl1oxa50u/Plugs.zip?dl=1
Greetings and I hope it is useful.
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Posted by H2359   (27 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #18 on Mon 20 Apr 2020 10:43 AM (UTC)
Message
Yes I think that this would work fine but there’s got to be a way to be able to spell the output lines or go through them word by word actually there’s got to be a way to do both or else you’re not really helping because yes it’s important to have a way to read the output lines with the screen reader so that parts good but there’s a lot of important things that we miss with a screen reader when reading through lines of output that it really would be helpful to be able to spell the output lines out or read them word by word
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (23,072 posts)  Bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #19 on Mon 20 Apr 2020 09:46 PM (UTC)
Message
I should point out, if I haven't already, that the client has tab-completion. So if there is a word like Mister Mxyzptlk and you aren't sure how it is spelt you type the first couple of letters and hit tab, and then it completes the word based on the most recent lines from the MUD.
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Fiendish   USA  (2,533 posts)  Bio   Global Moderator
Date Reply #20 on Mon 20 Apr 2020 11:33 PM (UTC)

Amended on Mon 20 Apr 2020 11:36 PM (UTC) by Fiendish

Message
Nick, I think the number of control options you're going to have to reproduce to adequately mimic the functionality of the notepad's movable cursor is too high. Would it not be simpler to write lines to the bottom of the notepad and remove very old lines from the top of it? That way you get to lean on the functionality that already exists between the movable cursor as well as system-level control options for the screen reader like whether to read whole words or letter by letter, the ability to select portions of text to be pasted into other programs, and so on.
https://github.com/fiendish/aardwolfclientpackage
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (23,072 posts)  Bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #21 on Tue 21 Apr 2020 02:46 AM (UTC)
Message
I suppose that would be simple, yes.
- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by H2359   (27 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #22 on Tue 21 Apr 2020 10:29 AM (UTC)
Message
I would suggest that if you’re curious to read more about how a screen reader works I would encourage you to go read the documentation for jaws that should be able to give you a good enough idea how screen readers work and then you should be able to apply it to the program itself meaning mush
The plug-in is really simple and the way it works at least for me but in terms of the structure of it and how it was made I don’t know anything about that stuff so I can’t help you but it would be great if this stuff could be built-in too mush or there could be a download link with all of these plug-ins put together with mush
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Posted by Fiendish   USA  (2,533 posts)  Bio   Global Moderator
Date Reply #23 on Tue 21 Apr 2020 01:26 PM (UTC)

Amended on Tue 21 Apr 2020 01:41 PM (UTC) by Fiendish

Message
Quote:
I would encourage you to go read the documentation for jaws

Oof. Not to be rude, but I don't think that anybody wants to dig through hundreds of pages of documentation for an extremely intricate product unless they actually need to use the software daily. I think it's much more important for us to recognize the breadth of what actions you want to do that aren't currently supported.

As I understand it, those are:
  • read back previous whole lines
  • read back individual words from previous lines
  • read back individual characters from previous lines
  • page-up/down to different sections of lines
  • search for words within the body of text to move the selection cursor to a different unknown location where those words occur
  • copy arbitrary amounts of text to the clipboard including whole lines and partial lines
The notepad natively supports all of those things automatically. From a technical standpoint, the only things obviously missing is the ability to remove lines from the start of the notepad while keeping the cursor in place. Right now you'd have to re-write the entire notepad every time you want to update it, and I'm pretty sure that drops the cursor to the end.
https://github.com/fiendish/aardwolfclientpackage
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Posted by H2359   (27 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #24 on Tue 21 Apr 2020 02:36 PM (UTC)
Message
Yes the only reason I suggested that is because Nick seemed to be having trouble imagining how a screen reader worked so the best way that I could tell him was to go read the documentation so that he could get a better picture of how things worked and better be able to determine how to make mush work better with a screen reader without any plug-ins which I am assuming that’s why he’s trying to ask lots of questions about it
Which I understand the questions are great I just don’t do well explaining them through physically writing things down in text
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Posted by Tspivey   Canada  (54 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #25 on Sat 02 May 2020 02:03 PM (UTC)
Message
output_functions does two things:

1. It optionally sends the incoming text to a notepad as it appears.
2. It offers keys to mimic screen reader commands to read the output, because the output window doesn't have any accessibility support implemented in it, and reading with the screen reader scraping has some disadvantages.
However, that only lets you read by lines. I could implement word reading, but character reading is a bit more complex (because screen reader APIs don't have a function to speak individual characters, for example punctuation or spaces).

Personally I don't use the notepad, because:
1. It slows down new text output. I'm not sure why; maybe AppendToNotepad() is slow.
2. Pressing control tab is awkward. I could probably re-bind tab to switch to the notepad and come up with a different key for completion, but I couldn't bind tab in that notepad to switch me back. I just realized alt control space will switch me back, so I might be able to do this with an autohotkey script.
3. It stops collecting output after a while.

Screen readers try to screen scrape the output window and let you read it (e.g. with the JAWS cursor or NVDA object navigation), however you have to keep up with the scroll if you read it that way.

Tab completion is useful, except it stops at the first entry it sees. So if there's a word that's hard to spell but I know the first few letters of it, I have to hope that nothing else came after it which starts with those letters, because pressing tab again won't give me the previous one.

output_functions: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ea620loloknhe8n/output_functions.xml?dl=1
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