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➜ MUSHclient
➜ MXP and Pueblo
➜ MXP Image
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Posted by
| Flannel
USA (1,230 posts) Bio
|
Date
| Reply #30 on Tue 15 Jun 2004 06:29 AM (UTC) Amended on Tue 15 Jun 2004 06:33 AM (UTC) by Flannel
|
Message
| the worlds ARE scrolling thought, they just scroll in larger chunks. THAT is what is confusing him. While in overland mode, you scroll at 100 lines, or whatever, at a time, yes?
<off topic>
Also, shadowfyr, (this is completely off topic) you have any sort of scripting client for messaging stuff? I want to be able to have MC-like ability for my messages stuff, putting up messages with triggers, setting away at times, and such. Go ahead and email me if its an affirmative, if its not, ignore this completely.
</off topic> |
~Flannel
Messiah of Rose
Eternity's Trials.
Clones are people two. | Top |
|
Posted by
| Eos
USA (52 posts) Bio
|
Date
| Reply #31 on Tue 15 Jun 2004 06:35 AM (UTC) |
Message
|
Quote:
I do still think Nick is partly missing my point. He says that he previously used fixed sized clients for telnet that had text positioning. However, I used one called Telemate, which you can still find if you look really hard.
WRQ Reflection does the same things.
http://techlibrary.wallstreetandtech.com/data/detail?id=1063999758_819&type=RES&src=TOPRES
As for Nick
Quote:
Yeah, let's see the whole enchilada, not just bits of it.
http://www.auricmud.com/Sample/overland.gif
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Posted by
| Shadowfyr
USA (1,790 posts) Bio
|
Date
| Reply #32 on Tue 15 Jun 2004 06:40 AM (UTC) |
Message
| Yes, that is basically what he does, 'because' Mushclient lacks the clear command support. If it did, then the visible text would get shoved into the buffer and Mushclient would start displaying new lines on a blank page, starting at the top down, as though you had just reconnected. Sending a mess of lines to 'simulate' this is a cheat and isn't technically right, since it doesn't start the new 'page' at the top of the display area, as the real command does.
A bit of trivia, the original 'clear' command on some machines, like the Apple II actually cleared the screen by executing a series of memory shifts. the last 80 characters in the video memory where always 0s, so by executing a special 'pagefeed', which scrolled the entire content 25 times, it cleared the screen. You would then execute a clear, which really only moved the cursor to the top left. In effect, the Apple II systems did what a primitive telnet client would likely do. lol | Top |
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Posted by
| Flannel
USA (1,230 posts) Bio
|
Date
| Reply #33 on Tue 15 Jun 2004 06:46 AM (UTC) Amended on Tue 15 Jun 2004 06:51 AM (UTC) by Flannel
|
Message
| We were talking about on Zmud. And he meant screen shots with the "whole enchilada" bit, as opposed to just the world output bit.
And also, in that one, when youre mapping, your mud sends a bunch of newlines? or no? On MC You send a lot, what about Zmud.
Im just trying to get a sense of what youre trying to get, in Zmud, and how we can possibly work around in MC. |
~Flannel
Messiah of Rose
Eternity's Trials.
Clones are people two. | Top |
|
Posted by
| Eos
USA (52 posts) Bio
|
Date
| Reply #34 on Tue 15 Jun 2004 06:47 AM (UTC) |
Message
| In all fairness, keep in mind I do both a clear, and a mass-linefeed, so it pushes all clients to the same place, just in a more unpleasant manner for those that ignore the clear directive.
| Top |
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Posted by
| Eos
USA (52 posts) Bio
|
Date
| Reply #35 on Tue 15 Jun 2004 06:55 AM (UTC) |
Message
| I've been very clear what I want.
I want inline image support, so that every visible coordinate of an overland map can be displayed as an actual image.
| Top |
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Posted by
| David Haley
USA (3,881 posts) Bio
|
Date
| Reply #36 on Tue 15 Jun 2004 10:13 PM (UTC) |
Message
| Does it not bother you, Eos, that to add in-line image support would basically be a complete rewrite of the output system (if not more)?
The problem here isn't one of usefulness; the problem here is that you guys are asking Nick to invest a truly huge amount of time for something that is probably just as infrequent.
Also, some technical corrections:
- BMPs can be compressed (e.g. RLE)
- the only reason it's useful to have the client set the speed is because the SMAUG networking code is... well... crap. It will loop endlessly until the buffer is written, which obviously on a slow connection means that the MUD hangs. The reason that modern games let you set the connection is to limit the information they send you so that you only get the essentials - not to adjust the speed at which it is sent.
Quote: Overland is purely connective. Think world maps in final fantasy games, or any other RPG, where you exit a town/dungeon and you're on a map. Thats overland.
When you leave the overland entering a town/city/tower/dungeon/area in general you go back to standard mudding.
Since you used the term "standard mudding" you are basically admitting that what you are doing is not standard. You've made half (or a portion, whatever) of your game non-text - graphical.
Regardless, given how much Nick charges for MUSHclient, given how relatively few people register it compared to how many use it, given that he doesn't charge for any upgrades (major or minor), given the generosity of free support, given the generosity of the endless trial, given all the rest; to be honest if I were Nick I wouldn't really even want to spend the time on such a large project so that such a small group could see images in a text game.
Yeah, I definitely think it would be neat to have them. And to be frank I've wanted them for a map as well (though not a non-scrolling thing like you have.) I already gave an example that I think would be very neat, like little weapon icons. That being said, I don't want it enough to give Nick shit about it. If it'd be hard to do - and I know that it is certainly not trivial - and since it's not a common feature (you basically admitted this yourself) it doesn't even make business sense to make this change.
Basically you're asking for a different product and not really an extension to a product. Would you be willing to pay for a new version of MUSHclient that had image support? Perhaps that would be motivation for Nick to spend so much time working on it. |
David Haley aka Ksilyan
Head Programmer,
Legends of the Darkstone
http://david.the-haleys.org | Top |
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Posted by
| Nick Gammon
Australia (23,133 posts) Bio
Forum Administrator |
Date
| Reply #37 on Tue 15 Jun 2004 11:56 PM (UTC) |
Message
|
Quote:
http://www.auricmud.com/Sample/overland.gif
From that GIF, it seems you are not talking about inline images (like pictures of dragons) but a font-based "map" of the ground. And, I gather, you want a different font than is used for text.
Putting aside the "screen clear" issue, which you seem prepared to work around by sending linefeeds, basically you just want the ability to change fonts? Is that it? Or is there more to that image than meets the eye?
I have used Reflection in the past, I understand it supports full-screen addressing. It is not a MUD client, it is a telnet client. They aren't the same thing you know. If Reflection is so good, why not use it? |
- Nick Gammon
www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com | Top |
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Posted by
| Eos
USA (52 posts) Bio
|
Date
| Reply #38 on Wed 16 Jun 2004 12:16 AM (UTC) |
Message
|
Quote:
From that GIF, it seems you are not talking about inline images (like pictures of dragons) but a font-based "map" of the ground. And, I gather, you want a different font than is used for text.
Putting aside the "screen clear" issue, which you seem prepared to work around by sending linefeeds, basically you just want the ability to change fonts? Is that it? Or is there more to that image than meets the eye?
No. Fonts have nothing to do with this, regardless of what Flannel keeps insisting. A font is a single character in a single color, with a background color, which I already have and in no way shape or form is an improvement on what I have.
Do you remember this page?
http://www.auricmud.com/images/terrain/twilight-map.html
I want to be able to do that, with inline images, in my MUD.
Instead of each cell of the map being represented by an ugly garish ascii character (regardless of font) in an ugly single background/foreground color scheme, I want to be able to use an actual gif, for each tile of the map (The real tiles are a bit smaller than on that page though, it was enlarged for the website sample).
Hence the term, tileset, as used on page 1 of this thread.
You've already said you have no interest in making this possible, so the point is moot, though it would be nice if you understood now as Shadowfyr seems to.
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Posted by
| Nick Gammon
Australia (23,133 posts) Bio
Forum Administrator |
Date
| Reply #39 on Wed 16 Jun 2004 06:10 AM (UTC) |
Message
| Oh, I see. That image was not a single image but a tiled collection of hundreds of small images, one for each piece of the terrain.
I do not plan to allow lots of inline images, as I said, however it probably is not too big a stretch for someone to make a COM object that would do it on a side screen. |
- Nick Gammon
www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com | Top |
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Posted by
| Eos
USA (52 posts) Bio
|
Date
| Reply #40 on Wed 16 Jun 2004 09:59 AM (UTC) |
Message
|
Quote:
Oh, I see. That image was not a single image but a tiled collection of hundreds of small images, one for each piece of the terrain.
Yes.
Quote:
however it probably is not too big a stretch for someone to make a COM object that would do it on a side screen.
Already tried a similar route.
It just does not work as well because it's in a separate window. It's like driving in reverse without a rear view mirror; you have to constantly turn and look at the other window to see where you are.
Best compromise was making the additional window always on top floating in the far right away from where the MUD itself is, but because the player is not always on the map it comes down to them having to minimize/restore the map window everytime they exit/reenter a map.
| Top |
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Posted by
| Dubthach
(47 posts) Bio
|
Date
| Reply #41 on Wed 16 Jun 2004 04:44 PM (UTC) |
Message
|
Quote: Rude I was, and am, because I'm sick to death of beating this dead horse since day 1 of MXP being added to mushclient. Three years of seeing the samr argument is bound to make anyone begin to twitch.
Since you seem to be the only one who cares passionately about this over the three year period, perhaps you should consider writing your own client that uniquely addresses your needs? Your mud sounds very interesting and innovative. You should not be surprised when clients don't hop onto the bleeding edge with you.
Quote: If anyone else feels like sharing their highly enlightened opinion of me, do so via the email address in my bio, not in the forum. The thread should at least try to remain on topic.
So, you can be as rude as you like in public, and no one should call you on it? I don't think so. In general, this forum is congenial. There are a few condescending people, but your posts in this thread really take the cake. I applaud Nick for being able to ignore your condescension and outright rudeness. If I got an RFE like yours on one of my projects, it would go immediately to the circular file.
I agree with Ksilyan:
Quote: Basically you're asking for a different product and not really an extension to a product. Would you be willing to pay for a new version of MUSHclient that had image support? Perhaps that would be motivation for Nick to spend so much time working on it.
Except that, since you're asking for Nick to join you on the bleeding edge where very few mudders go...it would make more sense for you to fund development than have to buy a new copy of the software.
Dub | Top |
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Posted by
| Shadowfyr
USA (1,790 posts) Bio
|
Date
| Reply #42 on Wed 16 Jun 2004 07:23 PM (UTC) Amended on Wed 16 Jun 2004 07:25 PM (UTC) by Shadowfyr
|
Message
| Bleeding edge...? Lol Muds have not changed significantly since back when you dialed a single computer using a 1200baud modem and the most exciting game around was Food Fight. Numerous attempts have been made over the years to improve this, from custom clients for Lands of Devistation that could display images of the mutants you got attacked by, to using something like the DOS Basic's PLAY command to generate sound and music. There was even a RLE encoding graphics method used to show simple images. This is hardly bleeding edge. Unsupported, because it is easier to make a simple client that ignores certain possible features, than one that is does support them, but hardly bleeding edge...
However, since sanity, both with images and 'correct' support of text positioning isn't going to win out... (would be nice at least to see the later fixed, since it is actually more common.) Here is an idea Eos. How about an option specific to Mushclient?
Make a plugin that uses several special triggers and a overlay window. The overlay window would use the getframe command and some simple code to return the Musclient window size. It would be a frameless window, that simply floats (always on top) over the output area in Mushclient. (You may need to look at the 'child' windows of the one you get from getframe to find the right size.) When you need it, you display it, when you don't, you minimize it.
As for the triggers.. You would need to send out something that Mushclient will trigger on, like [map-on] to display it, [map-off] to hide it and then maybe a [map-data (width, height): data] for what you are going to show. All the normal text will still scroll, but the map will appear in this window. Its not a great solution, but it is better than trying to parse the text map and rebuild the correct image.
Of course.. You may also be able to intercept the MXP tags for those images and pass on the info to the window, then cancel processing of the tag. This would have the effect in Mushclient's output of making the map (and the million links) not appear, while displaying the map in the window. The major trick is just setting it up to position itself, and hide/show as you need it.
Note.. The child window you need has a class name of AfxFrameOrView42s. It is the child of the main frame like so:
getframe (main)
|-MDIClient
|-"World Name"
|-"" AfxMDIFrame42s
|-"" AfxFrameOrView42s <--- This one.
The trick is to allow just enough lines visible 'below' your phantom map window for it to still display the text underneath correctly. Though.. You may need to add something to look at the font size and 'guess' the right number of pixels to shorten it to fit. Anyway, it is an idea... You could always cheat, grabbing the device context for the output window and directly writing graphics into it, but that wouldn't probably work too well. lol | Top |
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Posted by
| Poromenos
Greece (1,037 posts) Bio
|
Date
| Reply #43 on Wed 16 Jun 2004 08:21 PM (UTC) |
Message
| You said that you had made a COM program that displayed the MUD but the user had to minimize/restore it all the time. Couldn't the program detect when the user entered/left the dungeon and get minimized/restored on its own? |
Vidi, Vici, Veni.
http://porocrom.poromenos.org/ Read it! | Top |
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Posted by
| Flannel
USA (1,230 posts) Bio
|
Date
| Reply #44 on Wed 16 Jun 2004 09:44 PM (UTC) |
Message
| Yep. Thats what shadowfyr was saying. Or maybe not minimize, but you could at least toggle always on top or not. |
~Flannel
Messiah of Rose
Eternity's Trials.
Clones are people two. | Top |
|
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