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MUSHclient generic graphical mapper module

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Posted by Worstje   Netherlands  (899 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #225 on Fri 15 Jun 2012 07:59 AM (UTC)
Message
I wasn't planning on posting, since nobody needs to be told the same thing twice. However, I do want to make a comparison.

You have a button. You press the button, the light works. How is this implemented? The accepted way is to simply close the electrical circuit and voila, done.

The other way is to make a Ruby Goldberg machine. Your button nudges a domino, que 100 more, then something turns and a ball rolls, etc etc, and eventually a little robotic hand screws in a lightbulb.

Ridiculous? Probably, but I'm exaggurating with a reason. The latter way has so many fault points and unnecessary complexity that it is bound to cause trouble. A domino might no fall, the turny thing doesn't have enough momentum, the robot hand slips on the lightbulb, etc.

In comparison, the button is proven technology. It works with tons of different lightbulbs. It is simple. If one breaks, you can easily fix it. In the same way, using GMCP will not only allow existing mappers to work with it, it will also be simple to maintain: there's no logic to start and stop the omitting of lines, no other user triggers that might fire first and possibly prevent your script from running, and no chance on 'it breaks and now my output is being eaten!' sort of problems.

GMCP is a very simple protocol. Any codebase worth its name will make it very simple. The amount of bugs and time the crappy method will involve is paid back a hundred times by biting he bullet on GMCP and doing it 'right' from the get-go. (Learning how to use a wheel beats inventing it based on a picture!)

If this sounds like an elitist lecture, I apologize for coming across that way. But I see this happen far too often: people choose the 'crappy' methods because it is all they know, and other thing are the things of wizards and dragons. Ruby Goldberg machines are what come out of such situations almost every single time, and they'll never be 'replaced' by those in charge because it always 'almost works'. In the meanwhile, everyone (coders and players both) suffer the consequences. :)

Good luck with whatever method you go with. :-)
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Posted by Nylian   (12 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #226 on Fri 15 Jun 2012 06:23 PM (UTC)

Amended on Fri 15 Jun 2012 09:10 PM (UTC) by Nylian

Message
Worstje said:

I wasn't planning on posting, since nobody needs to be told the same thing twice. However, I do want to make a comparison.

You have a button. You press the button, the light works. How is this implemented? The accepted way is to simply close the electrical circuit and voila, done.

The other way is to make a Ruby Goldberg machine. Your button nudges a domino, que 100 more, then something turns and a ball rolls, etc etc, and eventually a little robotic hand screws in a lightbulb.

Ridiculous? Probably, but I'm exaggurating with a reason. The latter way has so many fault points and unnecessary complexity that it is bound to cause trouble. A domino might no fall, the turny thing doesn't have enough momentum, the robot hand slips on the lightbulb, etc.

In comparison, the button is proven technology. It works with tons of different lightbulbs. It is simple. If one breaks, you can easily fix it. In the same way, using GMCP will not only allow existing mappers to work with it, it will also be simple to maintain: there's no logic to start and stop the omitting of lines, no other user triggers that might fire first and possibly prevent your script from running, and no chance on 'it breaks and now my output is being eaten!' sort of problems.

GMCP is a very simple protocol. Any codebase worth its name will make it very simple. The amount of bugs and time the crappy method will involve is paid back a hundred times by biting he bullet on GMCP and doing it 'right' from the get-go. (Learning how to use a wheel beats inventing it based on a picture!)

If this sounds like an elitist lecture, I apologize for coming across that way. But I see this happen far too often: people choose the 'crappy' methods because it is all they know, and other thing are the things of wizards and dragons. Ruby Goldberg machines are what come out of such situations almost every single time, and they'll never be 'replaced' by those in charge because it always 'almost works'. In the meanwhile, everyone (coders and players both) suffer the consequences. :)

Good luck with whatever method you go with. :-)


I like your style and I appreciate the intent, but sometimes you go through making the Ruby Goldberg machine so you can see how it works. Not only does it make you appreciate the light switch more, but you can then learn the bits and pieces that make them go and apply that to other areas where a light switch hasn't been invented yet.

Do I want GMCP? Hell yeah.
Do I still want to learn how to make this trigger & consequently mapper work so I can learn more about XML plugins? Hell yeah.

The builtin mapper for CMUD seems to work fine for me for now. I personally like Mushclient more, but if this is too much work to get going I'm fine with just using this until we have GMCP implemented.

If anyone is willing to take a look and do the work, I'm more than willing to learn.
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (23,102 posts)  Bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #227 on Fri 15 Jun 2012 08:55 PM (UTC)
Message
Personally I don't propose to convert yet another MUD's output for mapping, having done it a few times. But you may get tips from them. eg.

http://www.gammon.com.au/forum/?id=10536

http://www.gammon.com.au/forum/?id=10667

If CMUD can make it work, no doubt it can be done. I presume they also hit issues with rooms with the same name, hidden exits, that sort of stuff.

- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Nylian   (12 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #228 on Fri 15 Jun 2012 09:18 PM (UTC)
Message
Thank you Nick! I've seen all of your instructional videos thus far from youtube and am constantly checking the site.

I appreciate the direction and will do what I can to get her working. :)
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Posted by Martin4503   (2 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #229 on Thu 23 Aug 2012 09:08 PM (UTC)
Message
Hi, im new on the forums, i just downloaded the mapper
and I play on a SMAUG mud, in spanish, so mi question is:

It works for a SMAUG MUD translated in spanish?

thanks
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Posted by Fiendish   USA  (2,533 posts)  Bio   Global Moderator
Date Reply #230 on Sun 26 Aug 2012 11:16 PM (UTC)
Message
Martin4503 said:
It works for a SMAUG MUD translated in spanish?

I don't see why it wouldn't work in Spanish too.

https://github.com/fiendish/aardwolfclientpackage
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Posted by Drobati   (1 post)  Bio
Date Reply #231 on Fri 31 May 2013 05:18 PM (UTC)
Message
The City Square
A giant circle in the center of the city, this spot was long ago misnamed
as the City Square. In the center of the circle is a large fountain which
anyone can get water from. Usually a popular spot for gathering, the City
Square is often where friends meet to chat, do business, or rest. Mounted
on the oil lamp's post are a dull gleaming plaque and a sign.
[ obvious exits: E S W ]

I'm trying to get a regular expression in a trigger to pass to a the lua function Name_Line.

The regex is not matching as I'm trying to pass Multi-line.

^(.*\n)*\[

Any help?
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Posted by Dougan   (4 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #232 on Thu 09 Jan 2014 07:31 PM (UTC)
Message
Hello all, wow page 16 of the thread, hope this doesn't get lost.

I am the head builder of Arctic MUD and I wanted to reach out to see if the generic graphical mapper could be modified to suit my temporary needs.

A little history for background: Our mud has been around since 1992 and is a heavily custom diku. Our telnet negotiation currently does not support GMCP, but it is on the project road map for later in the year. We are doing a lot of recoding and redevelopment to update the mud and bring it out of 1989 standards.

As a major part of the redevelopment, we are in need to redesign the world layout by moving zones and reconnecting them to a global road zone. In order for me to accomplish this task, I wanted to probe this community to see of the generic graphical mapper module to perform the duty.

We currently do not show the room numbers to mortals and I am in discussion with the head coder to see if we can just have this lifted to make this all a lot easier. Since I am a creator, I do see the room numbers and wanted to see if the mapper could parse a room and map it so that we can begin redesign of the world layout.

Below is a sample room description seen through the eyes of an immortal:

Solace Square [100] <City> POLICED
Solace Square is a large clearing that is surrounded on all sides by
huge vallenwood trees. These trees stretch far above the ground and their
limbs provide cover and shelter to the inhabitants of Solace. The clearing
here rises slightly towards the center of the square, providing a high spot
in the center. Small roads have been cut into the dense forest to the
north, south, east, and west. On one edge of the square, there is a huge
vallenwood which bough supports a collection of huts and buildings. A
small spiral staircase leads up around the trunk of the tree and into the
thick limbs which house the buildings.
A long torch functions as a street lamp here.
A large fountain sits in the middle of the road, taking up space.
976H 81V Exits:NESWU>

The number in the [] is the room number and should be able to be used as an unique identifier. The exits are listed in the prompt however we are not sure we would even have to parse those to get it to map. The mud uses ascii coloring as well, however I do not want to base a search match on it as most immortals turn off color.

Allowing the room numbers to be shown to any player is part of our plan, via GMCP, however I am in a pinch to get the world rebuilt while the coders are working on telnet sub negotiation and other tasks (CLIPS based mob AI) and I do not want to take up their time working this out.

Any thoughts? comments?
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (23,102 posts)  Bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #233 on Thu 09 Jan 2014 08:22 PM (UTC)
Message
As I have mentioned privately to Dougan, this should be pretty easy to do. Any MUD that is kind enough to provide the current (unique) room identifier has solved 90% of the problems in getting the mapper to work.

Basically I think I would modify the Materia Magica version which works with non-GMCP triggers. However I won't offer to do that unless the room numbers are visible to anyone, otherwise it would be a pain releasing a version, have you say "it doesn't work" and then trying to figure out why.

- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Dougan   (4 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #234 on Thu 09 Jan 2014 09:26 PM (UTC)
Message
I can completely see how that would be extremely difficult if you did not have the same game screen that I have while trying to troubleshoot and design it. I will see how hard it would be to display the rvnum to everyone as a stop gap until we move to GMCP.
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Posted by KaVir   Germany  (117 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #235 on Thu 09 Jan 2014 09:27 PM (UTC)
Message
Dougan said:

A little history for background: Our mud has been around since 1992 and is a heavily custom diku. Our telnet negotiation currently does not support GMCP, but it is on the project road map for later in the year. We are doing a lot of recoding and redevelopment to update the mud and bring it out of 1989 standards.

You might want to check out my protocol snippet, it can be added to most MUDs in a matter of minutes, and it supports a whole load range of modern features: http://www.mudbytes.net/file-2811

I've posted some examples of how I use the features here: http://godwars2.blogspot.co.uk/
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Posted by Dougan   (4 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #236 on Fri 10 Jan 2014 05:12 AM (UTC)
Message
The coding team is going to take the GMCP into advisement, but will not be able to get anything in soon. I am kind of bummed as I don't really want to pen and paper out 20k rooms and then move them all. I will keep looking and see what I can do.
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (23,102 posts)  Bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #237 on Fri 10 Jan 2014 10:40 AM (UTC)
Message
It can't be too hard to make the display of the room vnums occur for everyone. It would be better if it was an option, otherwise existing players will ask what the heck those numbers mean.

- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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Posted by Dougan   (4 posts)  Bio
Date Reply #238 on Fri 10 Jan 2014 03:22 PM (UTC)
Message
Oh, I completely agree but that decision is out of my hands for now. There were grumblings of zone reset abuse but I think it mainly is just having a mentality that is stuck in the past.
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Posted by Nick Gammon   Australia  (23,102 posts)  Bio   Forum Administrator
Date Reply #239 on Sat 11 Jan 2014 06:48 AM (UTC)
Message
Zone reset abuse? You lost me there.

When the zone resets the rooms don't change do they?

You would be hard pressed to find anyone (let alone me) who would put time into writing code they are unable to test. You will have to work this out with your admins. Sorry. I mean that in the nicest way. :)

- Nick Gammon

www.gammon.com.au, www.mushclient.com
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